Ep3. Public Catering in Scotland - From the Highlands to the Islands

Derek Wright: 00:00

In today's episode, we'll be talking to Chris Ross from Edinburgh City Council about how local authorities deliver catering across the Highlands and islands, as well as hearing about some unique suppliers they work with. Later on, I will also share some more information about british food Fortnite. And there will be another recipe from our resident chef, Ben Bartlett.

Derek Wright: 00:36

Welcome back to the British Foods podcast. Whether you're a foodie, a farmer, or simply interested in the stories behind great British food, you're in the right place. I'm your host, Derek Wright. And in this episode, I caught up with Chris Ross from Edinburgh City Council.

Chris Ross: 00:52

I'm Chris Ross. I have two day jobs now. Day job one is the catering operations manager at the city of Edinburgh Council. So we look after one, hundred and four schools across Edinburgh now a primary secondary special in early years, and we're delivering about 26 and a half mules a day. And then the other day job, which is becoming more and more a day job, as I'm the chair of Assist FM, which is the body that represents all 32 local authority FM service providers, that's not just school catering, it's cleaning, janitorial services, security, maintenance, etcetera. and so we're kind of the Scottish equivalent of LACA really.

Derek Wright: 01:40

And assist you obviously represent, the three different areas that you mentioned there. that's all local authority, isn't it? Yes.

Chris Ross: 01:48

So in Scotland, it's a fairly traditional landscape, I would say, in that, there's 32 local authorities in Scotland, and each one of those 32 local authorities deliver all their services in house. So we don't have any kind of outsourced providers, etcetera. everything is done by the local authority itself.

Derek Wright: 02:06

One thing that we want to sort of probably discuss during the podcast is around Edinburgh. That city is such a cultural sort of significance for Scotland. Obviously, you got the fringe, you got the tattoo, and a lot of food culture in the city, isn't there, Chris?

Chris Ross: 02:24

yeah. So Edinburgh is an incredibly diverse city. You know, we've got some of the, some of the kind of most wealthy population in Scotland, but we've also got some of the most deprived areas in Scotland. And it's a real cultural melting pot. You know, we've got, you know, it's a bit like London in a way. It's a bit of a metropolis, and we've got, I suppose, all different demographics, we've got all different races, religions. and a big part of that has shaped Edinburgh's food scene. You know, it's very diverse. And when we look at some of the kind of food trends and tastes, etcetera, here. They vary wildly to some of our island communities, some of our more remote communities, and we've still got areas in Edinburgh that are very traditional and that are kind of rural or remote within Edinburgh, which is hard to believe. You know, we've still got some small villages within Edinburgh where we've got very traditional tastes and culture. So, yeah, it's a real eclectic melting pot, I would say, derek

Yeah. And what would you say the, main dishes that's been served at the moment

so what we've seen is a real kind of change and shift in diets within Edinburgh So some of our top dishes are ethnic and asian dishes. So we've got, a new sweet potato and spinach curry on the menu which just launched a few weeks ago and believe it or not, that has become one of our most popular dishes. We're seeing a growing, I suppose, movement towards higher degrees of plant based diet in Edinburgh and we're looking at, I suppose, where we have got our meat dishes on and trying to make sure that they're, I suppose, of the highest possible quality. So we've maybe got less meat on our menus, but where it is on our menus, it's of significantly better quality.

Derek Wright: 04:16

And would you say that there is some traditional favourites still within Scotland?

Chris Ross: 04:24

Oh, definitely, Derek. You know, a steak pie is a firm favourite here. I don't think we'll ever lose steak pie. Things like mince and tatties is always a very popular dish. we still have haggis on our menu. And again, that is, it takes sometimes pupils a bit convincing to try haggis, but once they've tried it, they certainly do come back for more. So it's, as we were saying, it's a hugely varied mix, I suppose.

Derek Wright: 04:52

No, but you don't have to convert me on haggis. if I'm in Scotland, I'll certainly have some with your suppliers, obviously, in the Highlands and islands. Tell me a little bit about your suppliers, how you ensure that local food gets onto the menu.

Chris Ross: 05:03

And, we've done a lot of work both at an Assist FM level and I suppose a more national level with our. We have, a purchasing partner, which works on behalf of most of the local authorities. And I'll come to a reason why, I say most local authorities who buy on behalf of the local authorities. So that tends to be for kind of your standard commodities. So your frozen goods, your dry goods, things like ambient, tinned, etcetera, and what we've been doing with them is looking at ah, you know really easy swap that we can all through buying in bulk. So some contracts like our fruit and veg contracts will remain local, but other contracts such as, such as frozen and dry, what we're able to do is drive I suppose a market spend towards a particular product and that helps us a improve the quality of the product. So for example our frozen peas most, I would say 90% of local authorities are ah, now using a pea that's grown in Dundee as their frozen pea. So that came as local authorities clubbing together and saying how can we both from a cost perspective deliver something that works and is affordable for local authorities, but also is improving our local sourcing. And so what we can see over the last kind of 10, 15 years is a real commitment to year on year improving local sourcing and also working with I suppose national distributors who we know are the wheels of the supply chain to work with smaller providers. So we've got a small fish provider up in Aberdeenshire who couldn't deliver to all 32 local authorities. However our national supplier is able to pick that product up and deliver it to those local authorities that want to buy it. So we're trying to I suppose join the dots. As you know in your podcast you've been talking about recently about the supply chain in local authorities and in public sector is huge, the spend is huge and it can be really complex and I suppose one of the things that we're trying to do is try and remove as much red tape as possible to try and allow some of these smaller suppliers to get a seat at the table.

Derek Wright: 07:30

Definitely, I think obviously with that, that ah, we're starting to talk about a shorter but stronger supply chain. We're starting to understand that some of the shorter supply chains actually more beneficial to our operations and it's really interesting. The peas from Dundee, I think that's fantastic. And tell us a little bit how you started collaborating with that farmer to even engage in that sort of conversation. being able set that up.

Chris Ross: 07:55

So I think it starts by having a strong network. So like LACA as you were talking to LACA Assist is able to join as many local authorities together who have got shared aims and shared objectives to look at what are we doing at the moment and what could we be doing more of or better at? And a lot of it is through best practice sharing. So we may have one local authority who says I found this product and then that then leads on and snowballs to going, all right, okay, well, it works for them competitively, cost wise, it works for them. Could we look at it? And that's where we engage with Scotland Excel who are, purchasing, I suppose, body for Scotland to go. Actually, it's maybe not cost advantageous if one local authority goes for it, but how about 20? And that's where we really start to see, I suppose, the improvement in price and scale and making it attractive for these suppliers. One of the, I suppose, downsides that we have in Scotland, it's not downside is we've got a lot of really remote and rural local authorities. So, I'll talk about Shetland or Orkney or the Highlands where actually their supply chain is a lot more limited and they pay substantially more because everything's having to get shipped up to Aberdeen and perhaps go on a ferry. And so for those local authorities, that is a real struggle is that they do a lot to improve their local sourcing. But there is only so much you can get on an island. And so they are having to bring product in. And where they are bringing product in, they're paying a considerable amount more. Shetland, would make no bones in me saying, you know, in some instances it's 40% more than what we are paying here on the mainland and we're there working with the same budget as we are. That's incredibly challenging for them.

Derek Wright: 09:51

Definitely I was going to come on to that. The remoteness of some of the areas you serve within the education environment, that's going to be the biggest challenge. And I know there was, a trial around even getting food out by drone to support that. tell us a little bit about that project.

Chris Ross: 10:09

No, that's right, Derek. I mean, one of the things, I suppose, on the islands is it makes local authorities, I suppose, more adaptable and come up with creative solutions where they may be getting to their schools, maybe only one delivery a week. They might not always have the infrastructure to keep a week's worth of frozen stock or a week's worth of ambient stock. What, a lot of local authorities, those neck of the woods are doing as well. Could we work with the care home, for example, that's in the community? And join the dots, is it better to have one kitchen that looks after a school, a care home, perhaps a community centre, that they can staff, that has the resources that they need, as opposed to two or three smaller buildings where they just can't manage with the capacity? What we're seeing up in the islands and Argyle and Butte etcetera, is really creative solutions to what is a really difficult problem. You know, not just in the food that's going up there, but also the staffing. You know, it's very difficult when you've got an island of maybe 20 or 30, it's very difficult to staff that one kitchen. So it's about how we can be as creative as possible. I mean, Argyle and Butte have been trialling drones, I don't know if you've seen that, to deliver school meals. And that's kind of the forward thinking approach that we're all trying to tackle, because we're all coming at this problem in the same way, so why not work together to try and solve it, I suppose.

Derek Wright: 11:37

I think those challenges that you mentioned, not just the remoteness, but the staffing challenges, we find out within England, the staffing challenge is a major issue at the moment. And certainly after the pandemic, the landscape was very different. I can't imagine how you're able to do that in an area like Shetland.

Chris Ross: 11:58

You know, that's exactly right. I think we all seen a change in people's outlook after Covid and we lost a lot of people in the hospitality industry more widely. And I think one of the. One of the big things for assist this year has been focusing on how do we make roles in hospitality attractive for people. and historically, where we maybe were looking for, you know, chefs or cooks with a huge amount of experience, we know we can't get that anymore. So what we've got to do is grow our own. So if we've got people who are keen, who are ambitious, then we will provide the training, we will develop the workforce and almost create our own from within. One of the initiatives we've been working on recently, Derek, is in partnership with the hospitality industry Trust, an industry recognized training program for managers and developing that workforce to say, you might start as a general assistant and then you might become a chef or a cook, then you might become a unit manager and so on and so on. And I think that's what we've not been good at is say there's career options. You know, if you're not just. I hate when somebody says, I'm just a general assistant. You're not just. You could go on and do this, this, this. You could go on to a procurement job. You know, it's these links, I suppose, isn't it?

Derek Wright: 13:22

Yeah. And I think there's been such a change, hasn't it, within school food. I think the quality is recognized a lot more when we talk about local sourcing. We're very passionate about our ingredients, and where they come from. It's almost taking those staff almost back to scratch. Cooking away from convenience products, those craft skills and the key skills that they need to run those kitchens. I think they're all coming back to the forefront and I don't know, it sounds like that's the same within Scotland.

Chris Ross: 13:52

I think, you're completely correct, Derek, in that, and I think one of the big things that we've been looking at, ah, in Edinburgh, is if staff have a connection to where their food comes from, what we're seeing is they are more likely to treat that product with respect. We're seeing less wastage in our products, we're upskilling the staff and they're going away to speak to pupils about it. So we took, I think, twelve of some of our budding cooks to believe it or not, in Scotland, our, tomato Farm, which is 25 miles down the road, and it supplies tomatoes from April to October, late October, to all schools in Edinburgh. And we took our staff down to have a look at this tomato farm, which is incredible. It's an old dairy that reuses the bioethanol from the dairy cows to heat their greenhouses. Really, you know, really brilliant stuff. And what we found when they came back was we were getting, we were buying in the same amount of product, but we were getting significantly more yield because they weren't maybe cutting half a tomato and throwing it in the bin because they had seen where it was growing, they had seen the process and the love that was put into it. and they're going, actually, I'm going to get the most out of this product. You know, my peelings are going to go in a stock or a sauce or whatever and we, you I know, I was just blown away by that, by taking somebody to show them where it starts, the difference that that makes to the end product.

Derek Wright: 15:23

Chris, that, example of, the dairy farm using the bioethanol grape tomatoes is a fantastic example because we talk a lot about sustainability within the supply chain and from the cook's understanding where, where that product comes from, they bought into it that they're not going to waste that product. Well, that's key, but we talk a lot about reducing red meat, and I know that's quite controversial, but we have to have that balance, don't we? And I think that's a great balance of, the dairy farm, that's able to use that technology and to be able to produce another product from, shall we say, a byproduct. I think that's fantastic. We also need to understand that in an area like Scotland, the highlands and islands, not everything can be farmed in big, flat fields like within England. and those hills need to be grazed. So it's getting that balance. And I think I just demonstrate an out of the box thinking. I would never put tomatoes and dairy together unless it was on a sandwich. So I think that's a great example, of ingenuity, and forward thinking on sustainability. What other examples with sustainability are you seeing within your sector in Scotland?

Chris Ross: 16:37

ue out in Scotland next year,: 2025

Derek Wright: 18:28

Well, I think that's fantastic. And I know it's been on the card for a few years and discussed, and I think Scotland's probably leading the way at, ah, delivering that. I know our, buying standards are still being batted around shall we say, not finalized and also not enforceable. so we almost have double standards within the public sector when it comes to buying standards. And I think, a visual re approach of a. One approach for all, certainly is the way forward. And that's really good to hear, that it's coming in next year.

Tell us a little bit more about. I know you was involved in Edinburgh, the state funeral, and that must have been very different for you, Chris, from the days of. But a, privilege to be part of that event. Commemoration.

Chris Ross: 19:16

those five days, making sure: 3000

Derek Wright: 22:06

Definitely such a privilege to be part of an event like that. And also it does demonstrate the strengths of the workforce that can react in very short time, sometimes in very short lead times, that they can change, ah, and adapt to the situations. And I think we find ourselves in that more and more, the situations that change within local authorities that we can adapt to. And that's a great asset.

Tell me, a little bit more about, obviously, the. Within the schools. Tell me a little bit about the food that you actually serve within there. because obviously the standards are different between England and Scotland. And it's just interesting, for the listeners to maybe understand those differences between the two nations.

Chris Ross: 22:53

ur early years programme, our: 1140

Derek Wright: 25:17

Yeah, really interesting, because I know the Food Standards agency within England has done a pilot and the reporters has yet to come out on their findings that the area that I work was a pilot area and it was a really interesting project. Obviously, the biggest difference for us is that the local authorities within England don't provide all school meals. It's a very different area and we have a mix of private contractors and local authorities, and that comes obviously with lots of different challenges at delivery and whether that's a workforce or the standards. And, there's lots of challenges that come with that. so it's really interesting to hear the different approach in Scotland. And I know obviously one of our areas, there's difference in funding, and I know you touched on funding a little bit, but again, there is difference there. So obviously that does impact what we can, as caterers put on the plate. How do you find those challenges within Scotland, Chris?

Chris Ross: 26:15

I think it's still very much a challenge, Derek, in Scotland, and, you know, sometimes it can be difficult because we're all looking for, I suppose, inflationary linked funding, and people look to Scotland and say, oh, you've got plenty of money, so why do we need to give you any more? Because of the such stringent standards in Scotland, our cost, our, food cost is going to be considerably higher because of the types of product that we're having to buy in. And I think one of the other comparisons is the way that the funding model works in Scotland is, yes, it might seem like a higher cost per head, but our funding at the moment is capped at a certain uptake, so it's capped at 78% uptake. So any local authority that's moving above 70% uptake, that's coming at a, ah, cost. So that's coming out of their food cost. So where we've got local authorities with uptake, say 80, 85%, there's a significant cost pressure on them as an authority. So what we're trying to work with the scottish government at all is to say, here's our food costs and here's the inflate. you know, I would imagine, I'm preaching to the converter here, Derek, but when you look at your food cost to your pre Covid and look at your food costs today, I mean, it's eye water. Anybody who goes out and shops in Tesco or Aldi or wherever you do your shopping will see that their food cost, just like at home, your food cost has went through the route. What we've not seen is local authority budgets keeping pace with that level of inflation. Hopefully now things are starting to settle down, as I'm touching wood here, but we've never reached the levels of inflationary funding that, that local authorities actually need. And the concern is then that local authorities have to make difficult decisions on, you know, we're sourcing the best quality product we possibly can. What we don't want to do is have to sacrifice that because we're not getting enough money in. And that's a difficult decision local authorities are having to make whether it's here or whether it's down south

Derek Wright: 28:21

And I think that that's key to, well, it's the biggest debate at the moment, is around funding. And I think there's a disconnect sometimes between buying food. But actually I would see that food is an investment in our sector. Food is an investment in our young people, their nutrition, their health and their well being. And that goes hand in hand with education to enable them to learn. What differences do you see with the education side? I know there's slightly different education elements between England and Scotland curriculums. Does food play a big role within the education of young people within Scotland?

Chris Ross: 29:02

see is a real positive is the: 1140

Derek Wright: 31:37

I think it's so important to keep the education at the forefront, food education at the forefront of that food system. Without that, young people lose those key life skills, shall we say, being able to boil an egg, being confident enough to make bolognese for the tea. And unfortunately, we see more and more with the technology based systems out there, whether it's, you know, youre takeaway systems, that everything's on demand and it's quick, and that disconnect between where that food came from on the farm to ending up in a box, maybe a little bit sweaty because someone cycled it to your door. We want to try and ensure that young people know how to cook still, and I think that's so important. And it's really good to hear that that's home economics is still playing a big role within Scotland, something that I feel we should be doing more within England. It has been lost a little bit. I would hope for it to come back to the forefront again in the future. Well, I think, you've given me a, great insight into Scotland, Chris, and what you guys doing up there and the great work that you're doing, and great to hear some of the examples from the farm and some of the stuff that's going on within the schools. So thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.

Chris Ross: 33:00

and thank you for having me, Derek. It's very much appreciated.

Derek Wright: 33:04

Some great insights from Chris on how catering across Scotland can have its challenges, but how authorities have got some unique solutions to overcome this, but more importantly, how they work with producers and farmers to get great British food onto the menu. British food Fortnight will soon be here and we are busy putting lots of exciting plans in place. We would love for you to be involved and show your support to our farmers and, producers across Britain. You can head over to britishfoodfortnight.org dot Uk, a virtual town with recipes, films and case studies to inspire you to take part in this national celebration. If you like further resources or share your plans of british food Fortnite, email us infolovebritishfood.org dot uk or tag us on social media at LoveBritishfood. The date for your diary is the 20 September to the 6 October. Now let's head over to our, resident chef Ben Bartlett with this month's in season recipe.

Ben Bartlett: 34:10

July marks the start of tomato season with beet fruit. Fantastic in salads as a dip or sliced thinly and fried as crisps. Mid July beans pop up at markets and the sweet, tangy burst of fresh raspberries is great for a summer party. Here is a list of seasonal produce for July. Vegetables include artichoke, aubergine, beetroot, broad beans, broccoli, carrots, chilies, courgette, fennel, french beans, garlic, jersey royal new potatoes, corabi, lettuce and salad leaves, mange tout, new potatoes, onions, pak choy, peas, rocket runner beans, samphire or samha as I was once told by a, Norfolk fisherman, spinach, spring onions, tomatoes, turnips, watercress and wild nettles. Now, the fruits we've got include apricots, bilberries, blueberries, cherries. They're fantastic. Now, gooseberries, grignard, gages, kiwi fruit, melons, peaches, strawberries and those raspberries that are, absolutely amazing. Now, the herbs at this time, lots growing in the garden. Basil, chervil, chives, coriander, dillenne, elderflowers, oregano, mint, nastratium, parsley. Both the curly and flat leafed rosemary, sage, sorrel, tarragon and thyme meats. Got some lamb, rabbit and wild pigeon. Now, lots of fish at the moment. British, cod, coaly crab, dovisol, some haddock, halibut, herrings, languistines. Scottish languistines are the best at the moment. Mackerel down in Cornwall. They're fantastic place. Pollock, prawns, salmon, sardines, scallops, the queenie ones, sea bream, sea trout, shrimp, squid, whelks and whitebait. I will be demonstrating some delicious british dishes next month at the living heritage game and country festivals in Wiltshire and Cheshire. So come along and say hello. And my recipe of the month is a delicious apricot glazed barbecue british pork leg that features on the love british food website and is in my new book that will be out in a few weeks.

Derek Wright: 36:48

Thank you, Ben. If you like Ben's recipes, head over to lovebritishfood.co.uk Thank you for tuning in to love British Food's podcast where we share farm to fork stories from passionate individuals that are the forefront of producing and delivering a sustainable supply chain. We're dedicated to putting great british food back onto the menu. If you've enjoyed our farm to fork stories, please share our podcast with your friends and family. Join in the conversation on our socials at, love British food or head over to our website at lovebritishfood dot co dot UK. When you're out and about shopping, make sure you love british food. Buy british food, supporting british farmers and producers and strengthening our local communities.